I’m really not a big fan of the in-fighting that sometimes makes the rounds in the liberal blogosphere and I’m happy to say that Florida usually stays out of these kinds of spats. It seems like such a waste of time to attack allies for disagreements over tactics or policy or whatever, when the real enemy is the Republican Party and the conservative agenda. Sure, there is room for criticism — and I expect that — but when it goes beyond that, it leaves me at a loss.
Case in point. The second episode of Florida Progressive Radio aired earlier today. By request, we brought up the issue of Karen Thurman and her outside lobbying efforts with a Republican-owned firm. As I previously posted here, I don’t think there is really an issue and I don’t understand those who think there is an issue. On the radio show today, I said the same thing. Eddie agreed with me. Buck of Pensito Review reacted, shall we say harshly. In a post titled, somewhat extremely, “Karen Thurman is Screwing Up the Florida Democratic Party and Florida ‘Progressives’ Say ‘Who Cares?’,” Buck had a lot to say, much of it factually incorrect.
Co-editor Trish tried to get the Florida Progressive Coalition in their weekly radio blog to address the problem of Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen Thurman taking money from Republican lobbyist Al Cardenas. You know what they said? It’s a non-issue and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.
As I’ve already mentioned, I did say it was a non issue. From there, Buck and I part ways as far as the issues and the facts. It’s obviously not true that we called anyone an idiot. I don’t talk like that. Eddie doesn’t talk like that. We aren’t into the politics of personal destruction. It isn’t productive. It does nothing to improve the state or the world, so we focus on other approaches to dealing with things. Dont’ take my word for it. Listen to the show yourself. The Thurman discussion takes place from the 5:30 minute mark to the 8:20 mark. The word idiot is not used. Nor is it implied. Here is what I did say: I’m baffled that Democrats are attacking Thurman on this issue, particularly when there are more than enough Republicans to go after. That’s it.
Well, you know who the idiots are? Florida Democrats, that’s who. (Full disclosure: I am registered Independent, but I still don’t want to see the FDP screw up — again).
How is it that ad hominem attacks help prove a point. As with most of the rest of Buck’s post, there are no facts and not even basical logical arguments to back up the points he makes. I understand that Buck and I will disagree over tactics. That’s obvious, he’s registered Independent. But you can disagree as a civilized person or you can choose to go with personal attacks.
Karen Thurman, whose intellect and capabilities I have questioned before, is paid $100,000 per year by the Florida Democratic Party to lobby for the Florida Democratic Party. That she takes $3,500 per month from Cardenas to lobby for Republican issues is an issue, and if these numbnuts don’t think it’s an issue, then they are as useless as the FDP.
Actually, she takes money not from Cardenas directly, but for the firm he is a partner in. Beyond that, she certainly does NOT take money to lobby for Republican issues. That’s total nonsense. If that WERE the case, then I’d agree with Buck. But there isn’t even a shred of evidence available anywhere to suggest that Thurman is lobbying for Republican issues. She’s lobbying on behalf of Miami-Dade county to increase security at the Port of Miami. Last I checked, blogs like Pensito Review complained about the lack of security at American ports. Last I checked, national security isn’t a Republican issue. Last I checked, Miami-Dade county isn’t the Republican Party. Last I checked there are almost twice as many registered Democrats and Independents in Miami-Dade than Republicans. So, again, how is this an issue?
Look, Florida stands the first chance in a long time in the coming presidential election of turning from red to blue, and the “brightest lights†of the “Florida progressive movement†don’t think it’s an issue that the chair of the Florida Democratic Party is in bed with a Republican operative? Anyone who thinks that is really an idiot.
Actually, if you look back at the last four presidential elections in Florida, three of them were blue (particularly if you look at the combined Democratic-Green numbers) and the one loss was only by a few percentage points. That’s not what I call a long time. And I’m not sure what the purpose of the sarcasm about “brightest lights” and “Florida progressive movement” is intended to do, but it certainly doesn’t hoist me on my own petard, since I’ve never claimed to be any such thing. There are many, many lights in the progressive movement in Florida and most of them are brighter than me. I know Eddie is. I know Trish at Pensito Review is. I thought Buck was, but I’m starting to think I was mistaken.
Karen Thurman is Screwing Up the Florida Democratic Party and Florida ‘Progressives’ Say ‘Who Cares?’
Buck and I must have different dictionaries. In my dictionary, “screwing up” means “harming” something. Buck’s dictionary clearly says something different. Either that or he is just talking off the top of his head and has no idea what he is talking about. What is the goal of the chair of the FDP? To get as many Democrats in office as possible. How do you do that? Several ways, but one of the keys is raising funds. Since Thurman has been in office, here is what has happened:
1. FDP has gotten out of debt left behind by previous poor management.
2. FDP has set records for the high levels of fund-raising they’ve brought in and has gotten closer to RPOF fund-raising levels than they’ve been in a long time.
3. After a decade of continuous losses, Florida made more combined pick-ups at the Congressional and legislative level than they’ve made in recent memory — readers correct me if I’m wrong on the numbers here, but more than a decade.
4. Democrats won their first state-wide office (excluding Senator) since the days of Lawton Chiles.
5. A Democrat won a special election for legislature for the first time in who knows how long.
6. The Democratic Party picked up its first-ever Cuban-American legislator.
In my book, these are all good things. They are all good signs. They are all improvements. The thing is, I think they’re good things in the book of any other neutral observer as well. I’m not sure why Buck thinks things like this are “screwing up” the party, and I’m not really sure I want to understand that kind of logic. Do we have a long way to go? Of course, we’re still the minority party. But progress is strong, stronger than it has been in a long time. Whatever you think of Thurman, it’s clear she has something to do with that success.
And Buck doesn’t actually provide any real argument, much less evidence, as to just how it is Thurman is screwing up the party. Or how she’s lobbying on behalf of the Republican Party. Me, I might as well have been from Missouri, because I say, show me.
And we certainly didn’t say who cares. Obviously, if Eddie and I thought that Thurman was actually screwing up the party, we’d care a lot. Since we don’t think that, we aren’t saying “who cares,” we’re saying “we disagree with that conclusion.” From my personal observations and those pesky things called objective facts, I’d have to say the Florida Democratic Party, while it still has its flaws, is doing better than it has since I’ve been paying attention.
I’m sure I could sink down to Buck’s level if I wanted to and start calling people “idiot” and “numbnuts,” but I won’t. I have better things to do with my time and I know there are better approaches to convincing people of the righteousness of one’s cause. Now, back to doing things that actually help turn Florida blue…
“Karen Thurman, whose intellect and capabilities I have questioned before, is paid $100,000 per year by the Florida Democratic Party to lobby for the Florida Democratic Party.”
I wonder if Buck has ever met Karen Thurman. The personal attacks really destroy the credibility of his argument.
Ken, your post is thorough and well thought out. We don’t always jump out to defend the party at all times, but in this case there is no relevant issue. Actually, the fact that Karen Thurman is working to protect Floridians by helping improve security at the Port of Miami should be a positive, not a negative. I don’t really mind if she makes money while she’s at it.
And like you said, there are Republicans up to far far worse things. That’s where we should spend our time and energy.
Ken,
Sorry I missed the show today. I look forward to listening later.
I’m glad to see you are taking the high road here. It is not always easy to do that after someone calls you an idiot. But I agree with you, things like this are just counterproductive.
I have a word of advice for Buck. If you are so concerned that the FDP is screwing things up, you should consider joining. Because that’s the only way you are going to make a difference to the FDP.
One slight correction: We have had Cuban-American Democrats in the state legislature before. Rep. Garcia is just the only one right now — and representing Little Havana. An important step, but let’s keep our facts straight.
Yeesh, well this sucks. Then again, personal infighting always sucks. This kinda gives me some mushy ground to stand on. You see, I’m really kicking myself in the butt right now for not being on the show yesterday, because I did want an opportunity to disagree slightly with my friends Ken and Eddie. Perhaps that would have made things easier for Buck to swallow (ok, probably not), but its all in retrospect now.
In my personal opinion, Karen did make a mistake, but it wasn’t because she lobbied for the Port of Miami partnered with Al Cardenas. It was because Karen is a smart political operative, and she knows from a PR standpoint, this wasn’t going to look good to matter how hard it was spun. She should have been out in front on this one, informing communications staff of what she was up to in case a paper like the Miami Herald picked up the story and put it in the wrong context.
In other words, the first time FDP knew about this shouldn’t have been from the Miami Herald, it should have been from Karen Thurman. I do fault Karen for not having her PR cap on when she went out to do this (as any good politician or operative does.)
I also say this knowing that dozens of activists I and DEC officials here in Marion know got the wrong message about Karen, too. It was an unnecessary distraction which we had to take precious time this past week to correct – some damage still has been done.
Now, just because I disagree slightly with Ken, Eddie, and others mean that I have to insult them and attack them personally? Absolutely not. We as progressives (and as a society) have to learn that we can disagree civilly and not throw firebombs at one another.
I happen to deeply respect Ken, Eddie, and others throughout the Progressive Movement in Florida. They and others are doing a lot of hard work to get all of this up and running. I would hate to see this stalled over some personal comments.
>One slight correction: We have had Cuban-American Democrats in the state legislature before. Rep. Garcia is just the only one right now — and representing Little Havana. An important step, but let’s keep our facts straight.
Sorry, Michael, someone had told me that it was the first and I took them at face value. A good warning as to why we should always fact-check such things. By-the-way, Michael, are you of Cuban descent? Someone had asked me that last week and I didn’t have an answer for them.
I guess I should’ve clarified the title of the post a little more. When I say I hate posts like this, I’m referring to the one I wrote. I hate having to write responses to the things liberals say, particularly when they aren’t really policy responses. I could care less about the types of posts Buck writes. I believe in freedom of speech, so he can say whatever he wants. But he said things that I felt strongly enough needed a response, so I responded.
>In my personal opinion, Karen did make a mistake, but it wasn’t because she lobbied for the Port of Miami partnered with Al Cardenas. It was because Karen is a smart political operative, and she knows from a PR standpoint, this wasn’t going to look good to matter how hard it was spun.
I don’t think we actually disagree, Ray. I’m a person who believes that the best defense is a good offense, so I agree she should’ve pre-empted the Herald and helped keep this a non-issue.
>In other words, the first time FDP knew about this shouldn’t have been from the Miami Herald, it should have been from Karen Thurman.
I agree with this as well. I believe that your colleagues, friends and supporters should not be blindsinded by the news media or your opponents, they should know in advance about things like this for two reasons. One, if they disagree, they should be given the option to part company or distance themselves from the issue. Two, if they support your position/actions, they should be given the chance, and the ammunition to defend you. My biggest personal (as opposed to policy) disappointment with Bill Clinton wasn’t that he got a blow job or that he lied to the public — politicians do those things frequently — it was that he lied to his closest friends, supporters, and, apparently, to his wife. That I had a big problem with.
Enjoyed the post and the discussion, but I could get past something, though not no where near the crux of the debate:
“It’s obviously not true that we called anyone an idiot. I don’t talk like that. Eddie doesn’t talk like that. We aren’t into the politics of personal destruction. It isn’t productive. It does nothing to improve the state or the world, so we focus on other approaches to dealing with things.”
Also,
“I’m sure I could sink down to Buck’s level if I wanted to and start calling people “idiot†and “numbnuts,†but I won’t. I have better things to do with my time and I know there are better approaches to convincing people of the righteousness of one’s cause.”
But over at Ken’s web site he makes pretty frequent use of the words “idiot” and “idiotic.” From Bill Kristol to PETA folks. Ken’s also found some other, admittedly creative, intellectual insults as well. In fact, on the occasions that I wander over to T.Rex’s guide it is to see who he is going to flame next.
Perhaps Ken is turning over a new leaf, but I found it humorous that the guy who has a reoccurring “Conservatives are F@*%king Nuts” post would give such righteous commentary about how to take the high road in conveying your beliefs.
On another sidenote, I continue to be impressed by all the work you folks at the FPC are doing. Even the idiots. I mean, PETA supporters.
>But over at Ken’s web site he makes pretty frequent use of the words “idiot†and “idiotic.â€
As usual, Mr. G, you either miss the point of something completely or twist it to fit your own agenda. As I mentioned before, the point of the post wasn’t to complain about anyone using the word idiot, it was to complain about someone calling an ally an idiot. Big difference. I do use the word idiotic, but that’s not the same thing. The smartest person in the world can do or say something idiotic, that doesn’t mean that they, personally, are an idiot. And, seriously, when someone pursues an agenda that they are dishonest about and that harms the country and state I love, then I feel know compunction about using stronger language with them.
There is also a difference between my personal site, which is a personal site and this site, which is a professional site. You won’t find me calling anyone an idiot here.
The only negative term I regularly actually call people is “dork,” which isn’t quite in the same league as names such as idiot and numbnuts. Thinking about it a bit more, I can remember using the term “moron” from time to time when dealing with extremists, like a Fred Phelps or ANSWER or something like that. I don’t have a problem with myself or Buck or you or whoever calling someone a name like that if the are talking about an enemy. I do have a problem with it if they are talking about an ally.
“F@*%king Nuts” is at that level but it is, of course, meant to be Al Franken style irony. It’s a joke. Pointing out the silliness of someone’s point of view by turning around and using that same style against them. If I really thought conservatives were nuts, why would I give one posting privileges at my site?
And I don’t particularly care what someone calls me, but this attack also included someone else (Eddie) who I consider to be a friend and ally and I don’t stand very well for people attacking my friends baselessly. As you well know, Mr. G, I’ve defended my conservative friend fulchmeister over at my site against liberal attacks on him.